[transcript of WNBC’S interview with Senator Hillary Clinton]

DATE May 16, 2004 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 6:30-7:00 AM AUDIENCE 52,421
NETWORK LOCAL
PROGRAM News Forum

Interview: Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democrat from New
York, talks about Iraqi prison abuses, terrorism and issues facing
her state
GABE PRESSMAN, host:

In the last few days America and the world have been rocked by charges that
American soldiers tortured or mistreated Iraqi prisoners, gruesome images
appearing on television and in newspaper photographs, sexual acts involving
both prisoners and American troops, scenes that disgusted the senators and
representatives in Washington who viewed them privately; and images made
public that stirred similar feelings among citizens throughout the country.

Another stunning development: The beheading of American civilian Nick Berg by
a terrorist gang in Iraq. Senator Hillary Clinton sits on the Armed Services
Committee, which has heard from an assortment of officials and military
leaders, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, whom she questioned.
The junior senator from New York took the seat vacated by the late Senator
Daniel Patrick Moynihan at the end of 2002.

Announcer: From studio 6B in Rockefeller Center, this is a presentation from
News Channel 4, Gabe Pressman's NEWS FORUM. Now your host, senior
correspondent Gabe Pressman.

PRESSMAN: And Senator Hillary Clinton is our guest today on NEWS FORUM.

Welcome, Senator.

Senator HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (Democrat, New York): Thank you, Gabe. I'm...

PRESSMAN: Good morning.

Sen. CLINTON: ...glad to be back.

PRESSMAN: Senator, are you satisfied that we're making progress in finding
out the truth of what's happened in Iraq in terms of the detainees, the
prisoners?

Sen. CLINTON: Gabe, we are making progress. There are many important
elements of this situation that have to be addressed differently. We now have
military justice going about its business. We have to be very sensitive and
respectful of that because people need to be held accountable, but we don't
want to undermine the investigation or the trial process. We're looking hard
at the role that other agencies, intelligence agencies and even civilian
contractors may have played. We have asked a lot of hard questions about the
chain of command, the breakdown in discipline. So I think we are gathering
information. I'm not satisfied yet that we understand fully what caused this
deprav--depravity that was so shocking to Americans and such a violation of
our values.

And--and--and there are several points I would just make quickly. I mean,
first, horrible things are possible by any group of people. What sets us
apart from the barbaric terrorists who beheaded the young Mr. Berg from
Philadelphia is that that is, you know, conduct that we condemn in the
strongest possible terms. And when something like what happened in Abu Ghraib
happens on our watch, we try to get to the bottom of it and root out the
people responsible.

PRESSMAN: But--but do you think, for example--you think Harry Truman was
right when he said, `The buck stops here'?

Sen. CLINTON: Absolutely.

PRESSMAN: Do you think, therefore, that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
should resign?

Sen. CLINTON: What I've said about that is I think he has to reach a
conclusion about his effectiveness, because clearly the president is not
going to hold him or anybody else accountable for anything. You know,
the--the--the words were hardly out of our mouth before the president, you
know, rushed over to the Pentagon and said that he had full confidence in the
secretary and the leadership team. It's not just the secretary. So what I
have said repeatedly is that apparently this decision is up to the secretary.
And he has said--he told us in the hearings that he would evaluate his
effectiveness.

PRESSMAN: What about that effectiveness? Is he effective, do you think?

Sen. CLINTON: Well, you know, Gabe, I have a problem that goes far beyond
the disclosures of the horrible behavior and misconduct in the prison. I
think that this leadership team in the Bush administration, including the
secretary, his top lieutenants on the civilian side and the Pentagon, the
vice president, the president and others, have made a pattern and practice of
misjudgments that add up to incompetence and lack of credibility. I--if I
thought that removing Secretary Rumsfeld would change the direction of this
administration, perhaps I would be for it. But I don't see any change in
direction or real understanding of the sequence of mistakes and misjudgments
that have led to a very dangerous situation in Iraq.

PRESSMAN: As an experienced lawyer, do you think that the secretary has been
hedging, bobbing and weaving? Do you think that he's--he's failed to answer
questions?

Sen. CLINTON: (Laughing) Well, I think that's a pattern in this
administration. It's not just the secretary. It is the entire leadership
team in the administration, on the defense and security side. They bob and
weaved about weapons of mass destruction, about the intelligence that they
were presenting to the Congress and the world about the number of troops that
experienced military leaders said were needed, about the postwar planning.
It's a long list.

PRESSMAN: But the Democrats in Congress and in the Senate and in the House
of Representatives, did they fail to hail to heed the warning signs back in
January when there were some warning signs that there was something, to use a
New York term, unkosher going on?

Sen. CLINTON: You mean this past January with respect...

PRESSMAN: Yeah.

Sen. CLINTON: ...to the press release that was...

PRESSMAN: Right.

Sen. CLINTON: ...put out about the investigation?

PRESSMAN: Right.

Sen. CLINTON: That was deliberately downplayed. It wasn't brought to
anybody's attention. And certainly, whenever the administration or the
Pentagon in particular wants to deliver a message to Congress, they know
exactly how to deliver it. They can deliver it either directly in public,
they can deliver it behind closed doors in closed sessions...

PRESSMAN: Right.

Sen. CLINTON: ...they can go to the chairman and ranking members of the
committees, like the Armed Services and Intelligence Committees. None of that
was done.

PRESSMAN: What about the duty of the legislators to scrutinize, which is
built into our system? Did you--did you do a good job?

Sen. CLINTON: I don't think the Congress has been doing a good job in
general. And, of course, I include myself, I include all of us. But I think
there are both understandable reasons and some pretty well-grounded criticisms
that flow from that. On--on the--on the side of understanding, you know,
because of September 11th, a lot of people, not just in the Congress, but,
frankly, journalists, citizens--a lot of very thoughtful people basically gave
the president their power of attorney, if you will. They said, `You know, Mr.
President, this has never happened to us before. We have one president, one
commander-in-chief at a time. We're going to trust you, we're going to give
you our power.' I voted to give the president authority in Afghanistan and in
Iraq because I think it was imperative that, you know, the president be
empowered on our behalf with respect to security.

The problem is that that--that trust, that willingness to suspend judgment
for a period of time that we and the public and the--and the media conveyed
to the president was not returned with the kind of good judgment and honest
disclosures that one would hope for from the administration.

PRESSMAN: Did you and the other senators and congressmen of both parties
goof in allowing the administration to go unscrutinized, if that's a word?

Sen. CLINTON: I think what happened is that I, for one, very much believed
that the administration had very valid intelligence about weapons of mass
destruction. I'd seen it in my husband's administration. It was consistent.
So I don't regret giving the president authority to act. I regret the way the
president used that authority and I regret the way that, on many different
occasions, particularly the Republican leadership, in the House more than in
the Senate, have blocked legitimate inquiries. The administration already
operates the most secretive government we've ever had, in my opinion. You
know, my wonderful predecessor, your friend and mine, Senator Moynihan, his
last book was about secrecy. I--I just can imagine him, you know, just
walking the halls of heaven, you know, scratching his head in disbelief about
what this administration has done, which is more secretive than any of its
predecessors. So, yes, we may not have, as an institution, but the Republican
leadership in the Congress has not wanted to ask the hard questions until
recently.

PRESSMAN: Do you believe that Americans are at risk now, not only in Iraq but
around the world, especially in the view of the beheading of Nick Berg?

Sen. CLINTON: Well, I don't think we should attribute any consequence to
that action in and of itself. I think that was a barbaric, depraved
bloodletting that we have to condemn in the strongest possible terms. The
people who did it apparently are connected with al-Qaida. They have no regard
for life. They weren't as--acting on any kind of quid pro quo. They've been
targeting Americans and others for years, you know. We--w--there was no
reason for them to after the World Trade Center and they did. And this
horrible act of terrorism needs to be condemned by every right-thinking
person.

I do, however, worry that the way the administration has conducted our
government's policies has led to a lot of distrust and dislike of America
around the world. Now I have some colleagues who say, `Well, that's the price
of power, that's the price of leadership. We have to do what we think is
right.' Well, of course we have to do what we think is right. But we should
do it in a way that maximizes, number one, the chances for success, and number
two, we have to bring as much of the rest of the world along with us as
possible bec...

PRESSMAN: Isn't it easy, though, to be a backseat driver f--with President
Bush and his aides?

Sen. CLINTON: Well, it's easy to be a critic because there's a lot to
criticize. They have not conducted our foreign policy, our security policy,
in my view, in a way most likely to lead to success, number one. And number
two, to use the multitude of strategies and tactics that are available to the
United States--this war against terrorism is not simply or only a war that
uses military means. We have to use diplomatic and political, cultural,
economic means as well. And--and, unfortunately, they have made matters worse
instead of better on that front.

PRESSMAN: OK, let's come back and talk about some other things, including
some domestic issues, after this.

(Announcements)

PRESSMAN: Back here with Senator Hillary Clinton.

Senator, there's an order by, I believe, the Energy Department, by Mr.
Abraham, that would shut down the Cross Sound Cable, which I understand brings
power to Long Island...

Sen. CLINTON: Right. Right.

PRESSMAN: ...with great consequences in terms of the bills for Long Island
electric consumers.

Sen. CLINTON: Well, and also for the reliability of electricity. You know,
that Cross Sound Cable was laid across the sound in order to bring more
electricity to Long Island, and the state of Connecticut decided that it
wasn't up to what they viewed as the environmental standards. I disagree with
that. They basically have a complaint that it isn't buried in every place
deep enough, but it certainly meets most standards.

During the blackout in--last August, the Long Island Power Authority and
KeySpan and--and others who knew that if the cascading loss of electricity
reached Long Island there would be a tremendous problem, appealed to the
secretary of the Department of Energy to turn that cable on and let them use
it. And he gave them an emergency order and it saved electricity for 300,000
homes in Long Island.

PRESSMAN: But the Connecticut--Connecticut Authority and a lot of the people
in Connecticut would like it shut down.

Sen. CLINTON: Well, they then sued, and I--and I have a lot of respect for my
friends from Connecticut. I think they're wrong on this one. They sued to
have it turned off. And they were able to persuade the Department of Energy.
I think that's a mistake. We need to be having more cooperation across Long
Island Sound. And it's really not fair on another basis, too, Gabe. The
complaint by Connecticut was that the cable violated environmental
regulations. Yet Connecticut now wants to dump dredging from Connecticut
sites into Long Island Sound, about 20 million cubic yards of it, which New
York believes has all kinds of contaminants in it. So I'm going to try to
stop the--the dumping of the dredge materials, along with Congressman Bishop
from Long Island. We're going to be introducing legislation. And I'm going
to keep working to try to persuade my friends of Connecticut to--let's do
whatever is necessary to get a reliable source of electricity over to Long
Island.

PRESSMAN: The consequences for Long Island, you feel, are?

Sen. CLINTON: Well, I think it's severe on both counts. I mean, we don't
have a reliable source of enough electricity for the island right now. We're
just getting into the hot weather where people are going to be running their
air conditioning...

PRESSMAN: Right.

Sen. CLINTON: ...units and we need to have that--that cable operating full
time, around the clock, at least going forward. And then, you know, let us
work out some kind of resolution. And then we've got to do something about
the dumping of this contaminant con--contaminated material into the sound.

PRESSMAN: Another issue: homelessness. The advocates for the homeless are
saying that the modification of the Section 8 program, which provides vouchers
for people to help pay the--pay the rent--new regulations and also a cutback
in funds is going to result in a lot more homeless folks. Do you agree with
that?

Sen. CLINTON: I do and it's tragic. And I'm fighting against it. It's a
decision to try to save money in what's called the Section 8 program, which
provides federal government funds to help subsidize the rent in privately
owned facilities. It was a--a program to give people of modest means a chance
to have a roof over their heads without building public housing. And it's
worked really well, and New York City takes advantage, as does the rest of the
state. But with this ceiling on how much money will be made available because
of our budget deficit, which is a whole other subject which really has grave
consequences for New York and for our whole country, there are going to have
to be tough decisions made. People are going to be asked to pay much more of
their low incomes--we're talking about people who make $12,000, $18,000,
$22,000 a year, trying to keep living in New York City, providing a lot of the
work that keeps the city going. They're going to be asked to pay more, which
they can't afford. And some people are going to be literally left on the
streets. Where are they going to get housing that they don't have a
subsidized rent for?

PRESSMAN: Do you see any legislation that would change this situation?

Sen. CLINTON: Well, you know, I mean, if the Democrats were in charge I see
legislation that we could get back on the right track financially. We're
going to try to prevent the worst consequences, and I hope after November
we'll have different leadership and we can back to, you know, giving people a
chance to, you know, make a living, have a job, raise their families and do it
in a high-cost area like New York City with a little bit of help, which makes
them a productive taxpaying citizen instead of somebody who's homeless.

PRESSMAN: Commis--Police Commissioner Kelly has said that it's costing about
$200 million a year in overtime to police the city in view of the increased
demands for security, and that the federal government has only given him about
$12 million, I believe, in the current year. Are you doing anything about
that?

Sen. CLINTON: I've been working on this since November of 2001. I have a
deep difference of opinion with both the administration in Washington and the
administration in Albany about how we're supposed to evaluate our risks and
get money where it's most needed. There isn't any place in America that needs
homeland security help more than New York City. I--I can't say enough
positive words about Ray Kelly, about Nick Scoppetta, about the, you know,
FDNY and the NYPD. These are folks who are carrying the load. They're not
just getting ready to respond, they are actually trying to prevent terrorism.
They're out there every day. They've got their own intelligence units. We're
just not getting enough help from the federal government. That's true
throughout the state. In fact, it's true throughout the country, but New York
has more need than nearly anyplace else in the country.

And, you know, they're going to have a convention here in late August and, you
know, the costs for that convention have just skyrocketed. We appropriated
some money to try to help pay for the cost, but now we're going to expect the
city to have to bear most of the cost for the overtime, for extra protection.

PRESSMAN: Yeah.

Sen. CLINTON: It's just not right. And so we need both more money from the
federal government, we need a better strategy and we need to get the money
directly to cities where, actually, the work gets done.

PRESSMAN: Do you--do you feel that the health-care situation--you wrote a--a
long piece for The New York Times recently about it. Do you feel that we have
to ultimately head toward national health insurance?

Sen. CLINTON: Oh, we need a ha--we need an American health insurance plan.
There isn't any country in the world that has a plan that would be appropriate
for our country. What--what I'm trying to do and what I--I said in my article
is, you know, let's start talking about this again. You know, I did try 10
years ago and--and obviously, we all know that didn't work. So now we're
dealing...

PRESSMAN: Some people thought you feel on your face.

Sen. CLINTON: Well, I do--I think that's a fair statement. You know, it was
a tough problem and--and we didn't get it done so, you know, I--I'm--I'm the
first one to say, `Hey, let's--let's get back up and dust ourselves off and
try to do something positive.' Because I spoke to the Mt. Sinai Medical
School graduating class and I said, `Look, we haven't solved the problems of
the 20th century--uninsured, rising costs, stresses on the employer, base
system--and now we're facing the new problems of what's our genetic
information going to do and how are we going to make sure people keep getting
insured over time?'

PRESSMAN: You said in your book that you've made various mistakes, an--and I
wonder, was--was that the biggest mistake in--in your...

Sen. CLINTON: Well...

PRESSMAN: ...years in the White House?

Sen. CLINTON: How much time do we have? You know, that was the most public
series of mistakes. You know, I'm not sorry we tried. It was the right thing
to do. Obviously, I wish that I had known then what I know now about Congress
and how you get things done in Congress. But we didn't. So it was a worthy
effort. We made a lot of mistakes. I--I certainly didn't have enough
information to make good judgments on some of the challenges...

PRESSMAN: Yeah.

Sen. CLINTON: ...we faced. But there was a lot of good work done. What we
should be doing now is getting people back together to try to figure out how
we're going to come up with some solutions because it's not just a question
of, you know, standing still. We're going to see our health-care system
deteriorate.

PRESSMAN: As a young reporter, I covered Einstein once. He was called as an
expert witness in a patent case and they read from a book that he had written
to try to prove one--one side of the other's point. And they read the excerpt
from the book and he said, `Oh, that was a mistake,' and the judge said,
`The great Einstein made a mistake?' He said, `In a long life, many
mistakes.'

Sen. CLINTON: That's true. If you're going to try to do anything--I suppose
no mistakes, you, you know, stay in your house with the blinds down.

PRESSMAN: Let's talk about some personal things after this.

(Announcements)

PRESSMAN: Back again with Hillary Clinton.

Senator, we did a story about a man named Ansar Mahmood, who's the longest
detainee. He's in a detention cell in Batavia, near Buffalo, and his only
crime was taking pictures of the Hudson.

Sen. CLINTON: I know. I know.

PRESSMAN: He's held by the immigration authority. They want to deport him.

Sen. CLINTON: Well, if it hadn't been for you picking up on that story,
which appeared in the local press up in Hudson, a lot of us wouldn't have
known about it. I've joined with a number of my colleagues to write to the
Justice Department, the Immigration & Naturalization Services at Department of
Homeland Security to say, `Come on. What are you doing here?' I mean, based
on everything we can discover...

PRESSMAN: Twenty-nine months without a hearing, without a trial.

Sen. CLINTON: No hearing, no decision. Best we can tell, this is a young
man, you know, sending money home to his family, working seven days a week;
like so many immigrants to the United States, trying to get ahead in life.

PRESSMAN: Your husband has just submitted the complete--completed manuscript
of his book called "My Life," which sounds suspiciously like your title of
your book, "Living History." But did he read the galleys on your--on your
book?

Sen. CLINTON: He did. He did. And he was very helpful and, you know...

PRESSMAN: Did you read it on his book?

Sen. CLINTON: Well, I've been reading it as it goes. But he has had such a
rush of last-minute work that I--I haven't been able to keep up with it
because of all my obligations in Washington. It's going to be a great read.
I think people will find it very interesting, particularly about the pressures
and stresses of the presidency. It's--it's an inside look at the modern
presidency, unlike any we've had.

PRESSMAN: Do you think his book will outsell yours?

Sen. CLINTON: Well, I think it's got a good chance to outsell mine. I must
say, he has a lot to say about being president which I think people are going
to find fascinating.

PRESSMAN: A reporter--you s--you said the other day at a fund-raiser,
apparently, that `my next campaign, whenever that may be'; you said something
like that and one reporter thought that meant that you might be considering a
run for the presidency. You said. `No.' You're going to run for re-election
in 2006. What about after that?

Sen. CLINTON: Oh, gosh, Gabe, I don't think that far ahead. I'm having a
terrific time being senator from New York. There's no better place to be a
senator and to work with the most extraordinary people in the world, and--and
I'm just going to keep putting one foot in front of the other. We have a lot
on our plate as a country.

PRESSMAN: But political reporters, like myself, will continue to regard what
you say with skepticism.

Sen. CLINTON: Well, you know, I know.

PRESSMAN: Yeah.

Sen. CLINTON: I've gotten used to that. So I just try to do what I think is
the best thing to do. And--and with all due respect to--to you and all the
other political reporters, I--I just have to make those decisions as I go
along.

PRESSMAN: Who had the greatest influence on you in your early life?

Sen. CLINTON: Oh, my parents, by far. Absolutely; you know, both of them
together. You know, my--they're very different people but together they gave
me a lot of self-confidence, a lot of motivation and--and inspiration and I...

PRESSMAN: Your mother was the liberal.

Sen. CLINTON: Yes. Well, you know, it's--as I say in my book, the gender
gap started in families like mine.

PRESSMAN: And your father was a Republican.

Sen. CLINTON: He was. But he was--you know, he was a--a New York
traditional Republican. He was the kind of Republican who believed in, you
know, balancing the budget, fiscal responsibility, taking care of people who
needed help, making investments in our country to make it richer and stronger
in the future. He started pulling his hair out, actually, in the 1980s when
he saw the--the decisions by the Reagan and Bush administration to drive our
country into debt. And he was very proud when Bill basically put us back on
the right track. And I'm sure wherever he is up there, he's awfully
disappointed with what's happening now.

PRESSMAN: Well, thank you for your non-partisan approach to life, Senator.
We enjoyed having you here this morning.

I'm Gabe Pressman. Have a good day.